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Jim Harold interviews experts on all things ghostly in this PLUS ONLY podcast! For Jim's other PLUS shows, go to


Feb 11, 2022

Dr. Kristy Sumner joins us to talk about paranormal investigation and her team Soul Sisters Paranormal. 

Dr. Sumner was a great guest and you can find her website at

Thanks Kristy!


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Please note we do not guarantee 100% transcript accuracy. The below reflects a best effort. Thank you for your understanding.

Jim Harold 0:06
Ghosts. Have they become a cliche? Or can we once again examine this phenomenon seriously? After all, isn't it really our own afterlife we're curious about? Let's delve a little deeper on Jim Harold's Ghost Insight. Welcome to Ghost Insight. I am Jim Harold, and so glad to be with you once again. And we're gonna have an interesting call today, an interesting discussion, because we have a paranormal investigator on the line. But I think that she has kind of a unique background. She has a PhD in public affairs, with an emphasis as I understand in criminal justice. I'm talking about Dr. Kristy Sumner and she is one member of the multi member, Soul Sisters paranormal team along with her twin sister, Jenny, and several other women and who also have very erudite academic backgrounds. So I think that's kind of neat. And looking forward to finding out more about her more about her team, her philosophy of ghost hunting, and talk about some of her adventures. Dr. Kristy Sumner, welcome to the program, and I very much appreciate it.

Dr. Kristy Sumner 1:24
Thank you, Jim, I appreciate you having me today.

Jim Harold 1:27
So I mean, I guess the natural place to start, because a lot of people wonder about this, I think, you know, when you think about somebody who has a very academic background, very serious background, that, you know, they're not necessarily given two flights of fancy and maybe don't fit, you know, I'm not trying to be stereotypical but the stereotypical kind of idea of a ghost hunter or a paranormal investigator. How did you and by extension, your sister get into this? And why have you decided to pursue it in such a strong way?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 2:00
Well, honestly, it started as a girls' trip. My sisters and I, we live in different parts of the country. So we always take girls' trips to kind of get together a few times a year. And we had the opportunity to go to Moundsville, West Virginia in 2014. And we had a friend of the family that sat on the board of the West Virginia State Penitentiary. So he said, while you're there in Moundsville, why don't you just stay the night in the prison one night and see if you can connect with any of our spirits. And we've always had a fascination with the paranormal. We, you know, we've watched the the popular television shows, but we decided that if we ever had the chance to conduct a paranormal investigation, then we would try some different techniques, maybe try to use a little bit more scientific background knowledge if we if you know if we could have that opportunity. So when we went to the West Virginia State Penitentiary, we did we did stay the night in that facility. And we had some compelling experiences that we just couldn't explain through logical scientific explanation, door slamming footsteps running out of us at us in the darkness, voices men's voices when we were an all female team. So that really catapulted us into wanting to explore the paranormal further. And we also wanted to as best as we could try to elevate a paranormal investigation into a more professional mainstream approach, because obviously, we're seeing, you know, in a subculture type of context, so to be able to elevate it as much as we could. That was our goal.

Jim Harold 3:30
Now, a question, you said that you wanted to pursue this in a more scientific way? And that can be a loaded term when you use the term site. So how do you and the soul sisters paranormal team, what is the difference? What is the secret sauce? What do you do that might be unique to what? You know, some of the paranormal teams, for example we see on television do?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 3:54
Well, for us, specifically, what we do is we actually go in with a very healthy skepticism and we tried to debunk anything that others have claimed as paranormal. We take very copious notes, when we go in and we do a day tour before each of our investigations. We look for things that maybe would be something that's not as as obvious if you're just looking at even if you're not looking for them. So for example, we'll look at things like airline traffic, where were the flight patterns are, train traffic, vehicular traffic, light sources, anything that could if you're hearing it at night, or or, if you're not thinking about them could explain away a paranormal phenomena. For example, we were called in to investigate a business and he was convinced that his his president or his business was haunted because his night vision video cameras kept alarming at night and they would go on and off. And when we went in, we actually found that because the way his business was positioned, he was running parallel to a road that had high volume of U turn traffic. So at night when the when the vehicles would make a U turn, their headlights would go into the window of his storefront, bounce off a couple of mirrors and essentially blind his video cameras to the point that he thought they were essentially possessed. And so we told him to move the mirrors or the cameras, and his "haunting" would go away. And it did. And so we look for things like that before we claim anything as unexplainable during our paranormal investigations.

Jim Harold 5:30
Now, when you look at the cases, or at least when people approach you and you go out and check out a place, is there a percentage you could put on it in terms of things that are like, like this gentleman, maybe not an obvious but yet, eventually a mundane explanation versus something truly unexplained?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 5:50
When I'm asked that question, it's usually about 25% of what we, especially with residences and businesses, about 25%, we can explain away by something that's environmental, whether it be a light source that they weren't thinking about, or like I said, vehicular traffic or some type of something that's causing a vibration, like a train going by or something like that. So we can usually explain it away. Now, there aren't like I said, there are instances where, you know, we try everything that we can, and we just cannot explain some of the occurrences that we're experiencing, or that the homeowner or business home owner is experiencing.

Jim Harold 6:31
Now is there, and I've heard this from other paranormal investigators, you know, people watch the TV shows, they get excited, they watch horror movies, and they want there to be a ghost, do you find that that's the case sometimes in what is people's reaction when you say, hey, it's a it's electrical interference. It's a traffic pattern. It's a leaky faucet. So I guess the first question is, do you find that most people want there to be a ghost? And B, what's your reaction when you tell them it's a leaky faucet?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 7:06
You know, some people actually do want it to be haunted, because they want to be able to say, you know, I work in this haunted building, or I live in this haunted house. And so the reaction is one of a little bit of disappointment when we tell them that, you know, it's something environmental. The gentleman that, that I spoke of, in the previous example, he was sorely disappointed, because he was posting things on social media saying that his business was haunted, and all this other stuff. And so it was kind of a letdown to him. Now, you know, controversial, you know, conversely, when we tell people, Hey, we've experienced things, or we've captured things in your house that, that we just can't explain, there's no explanation for why these things are occurring. And we've witnessed them occurring. You know, they they say, Okay, well, I am, that's awesome that I live in a haunted house, and you have some of those that want that spirit or that entity to be removed from the location. And so that in that instance, we will call in a either a priest or demonologist, or shaman or something like that, to help them with that endeavor.

Jim Harold 8:09
Now, when you think about investigating, different people have different views on this. It's it's one thing like if you go into a Waverly Hills, or you go into the West Virginia State Penitentiary, or Mansfield reformatory, wherever, those are public places. But it seems to me that there's a difference when you go into private businesses, and even more so when you go into private homes, because somebody has to live there. And if somebody goes in and does, you know, whether the Hippocratic oath for physicians first do no harm. Is that an issue? And is that something you take into consideration about how you approach specifically private homes?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 8:53
It is, you know, the first thing that when somebody approaches us, the first thing that they always say is, don't think I'm crazy, but. And almost to every email or phone call we get That's how it starts. Don't think I'm crazy, but. And I think a lot of people just really want somebody to believe that their story is is factual right, that something is occurring inside their home or their business. And so we approach it in that manner. We respect them, we expect that we respect the fact that something legitimately is happening to them, they are experiencing something. And so we do approach it with that we don't we go into the home with respect. We go into the meeting with the homeowner with respect, and we listen to their story. And the very first thing we actually tell them to do is here's some voice recorders, we want you to take some voice recorders, let them record for 24 hours go about your day and then give them back to us and we will analyze them for you and see if we can figure anything out. And then you know once we start delving into that we start that kind of that slow slower process of kind of working with them to see if we can ascertain effect anything is going on paranormally? Or like I said environmentally. And so you do you do have to approach them with that, that mindset of, yes, something is occurring for you. And we're going to figure out what that is. And so when we do an investigation, like a residence or business, and if we find anything, or even if we don't, all of that evidence goes to that owner, we don't release any of that. If they want to, that's fine. They obviously we give them permission to do that. But we will never release it as a Soul Sisters paranormal investigation, that's just not what we do. Because we do want to respect that privacy.

Jim Harold 10:40
Now, in terms of ghosts, or or whatever we're picking up on in these places, how many of them are kind of like the idea of just kind of a replay where it doesn't seem like there's any knowledge or interaction going on there not sentient, versus phenomena that seem to be interacting with the place and with the people specifically, rather than just being like a replay?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 11:12
And that's an interesting question. You know, we've investigated over two dozen of the most reportedly haunted locations in the country. And when we've gone into the locations, again, we go in with that healthy skepticism. But in a majority of them, we're finding things that we cannot explain, after we've done our research, and I would say probably about, I don't know, about 60%, of what we find is intelligent. We're getting intelligent responses of for example, we were at the Lizzie Borden house. And this again, we're an all-female team. There are five females in the house that night. And we always start our voice recorders, the moment we crossed the threshold of the property, they're always running. And so we were just setting up equipment. And two of us, Jenny and Cara, were sitting in the parlor where Andrew Borden was killed during that event. And the voice recorders were running. But they were just kind of talking about the day. And then it started to morph into a comparison between the Valeska Axe Murder House which we'd investigated prior and the Lizzie Borden house. And Cora just made the comment, she goes, either way, being axed to death would be a horrible way to die. And we have heard a man's voice saying it was. And so that was very interesting, because it shows intelligence right that that entity is listening to that conversation. And he interjected to the fact that it was a horrible way to die. And so those are the type of things that we are finding in some of these locations that we're going to. And so for us to find that intelligent response or to get that intelligent interaction is extremely compelling one in that instance, specifically, that's a male's voice in an all female team. And two, it's responding intelligently to what we're saying. So for us that's extremely compelling and extremely difficult to debunk.

Jim Harold 12:59
Now, we talked about sentience versus non sentience. What about what some might term is good versus evil entities or ghosts, or whatever they are, that are either positive, or neutral, versus one that seemed to be more spiteful, and dare I say maybe even evil.

Dr. Kristy Sumner 13:22
You know, when, and this is just how the soul sisters paranormal team approaches an investigation, when we go into a location, we go in with what I call the right intentions. And by that, I mean, we go in with a level of a level of respect for both the location and the spirits we're attempting to communicate with. And so we will go in, and we will say, We're not here to provoke, we're not here with bravado, we're here to legitimately tell your story. And I think when you go in with that type of a mindset, I think in just from from what we've done, we get different responses than all male team or a co-ed team would get. And I think when you go in with that approach, you do get the responses that are more in tune to what we're trying to do. And by that, I mean, we have never felt anything malicious. We have never felt anything evil or demonic in any of our investigations. Now, that's not to say we haven't experienced anything dark. And by dark, I just mean something that's a little bit darker than the average. And and we experienced that a lot in prisons and jails. And I think because those individuals weren't so great in life, they're not going to be so great in death. And so there has been in some instances where we'll go into say brushy Mountain State Penitentiary or the West Virginia State Penitentiary, and we will feel something that doesn't want us there. And when we encounter something like that, we'll just say, here's a voice recorder. Here's a video camera. If you want to interact with us, this is the mechanism to do it. But we're going to leave you toyour space and we're going to investigate another location on this property. So we really don't go in with the mindset of interacting with anything like that. I know that in popular television shows and popular movies, demonic possession is a very noticeable attribute to those those those things right now. And I think that's why a lot of people always ask about the demonic, but for us, we've never experienced anything like that.

Jim Harold 15:31
Yeah, that was what I was gonna ask it because everybody, you know, it goes all the way back and probably before this, certainly, but, you know, The Exorcist and the Omen things and while I love those, those those movies, they're tremendously spooky and scary. It seems like I think sometimes people conflate you know, what's going on with something, It has to be something evil, it has to be something. And I personally believe in the existence of evil. I think it's a real thing. But I don't know that there's a demon jumping out of every corner. So do you find that that a lot of people say, Oh, I've got a demon in my house? And you say, Well, maybe not.

Dr. Kristy Sumner 16:09
Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. Because they had been conditioned by those shows. And again, I believe that there's evil in the world as well. I do believe in demons, I do. But I don't believe a demon is an individual that had a human existence, right? They didn't live, they didn't die. They are the representation of the evil of the good and evil in the world. And that's that those are demons. But for us, we go in looking for those those spirits that had a human existence. And to me, one of the very core attributes of being a human is being recognized, nobody wants to go through life not being recognized or acknowledged that they exist. And I think the same thing is true with spirits. And they just want somebody to know that they're there, they want their story told, and those are the spirits that we are communicating with, again, we have run into those that are that just don't want to tell their story that want to be left alone, and that's fine. But for the on the "demon side," because we don't go looking for it. We've never experienced anything like that.

Jim Harold 17:12
Now, I've got to say, one thing that disturbs me one of the most disturbing things that I hear people say all the time, and it really bothers me because I I've always felt, you know, I come from the background of the Christian faith, and I'm not a textbook, Christian by any means even doing the shows a lot of people say ah, get out Satan. But but the point is, is that I've always felt, you know, whether you adhere to Christianity or whatever faith, I always like to think that there's some justice in the world, you know, that, that good people who tried to do their best and help other people along the way, and live a good life, that there's something positive at the end of the road waiting for them? And maybe if someone's not been so good, maybe it's not quite as nice. I don't know, if I, you know, I certainly don't think that everybody should be thrown into a fiery pit of hell. But if you're talking about Bundy or Hitler, yeah, yeah. But but but the point being, that one of the things that really worries me is about this subject. I think it bothers me more than anything, even more than when people say they encounter demons and things, is the idea of that dead people get stuck. Like they don't know they died, or something happened very quickly, and they're stuck. And they can't, quote, go to the light. Now, I hope that's wrong, because that seems to me to be the ultimate universal injustice, that someone just because they had a sudden death, you know, is stuck in eternity in some kind of loop that they can't get out of? What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 18:48
And that's a great question. And I really liked the way you phrased that. And I think you and I are kind of in lockstep with our ideologies here. Because I do, I came from the Christian background as well, I am a Christian, you know, I do believe in God. So when I talk about the next realm, I will, I'll refer to that as heaven. And so for me, when when we die, I do believe that you go to that next level, you do go to heaven, but I don't think in some cases is instantaneous, like the Bible teaches, right? I think that there are some instances where there are some spirits or souls that are allowed to stay closer to this realm in order to communicate with us. So for example, the reasons that I think that we're able to communicate with some of these spirits is for three reasons. One, they do have unfinished business, right? There's something that needs to be fulfilled, before that spirit can go up into the next realm. And whether or not they're here of their own accord or not, that's still debatable, but for me, it's something that has to be fulfilled for them. And so for example of that one, my granddaddy died in 1983 and I was extremely close with my Nana, and in 2016 I had a dream That granddaddy came to me. It was a very vivid dream. And he came to me in this dream. And I said, granddaddy, what are you doing here and he said, I'm waiting on your nana, you're going to be getting a call soon. And I tell you, Jim. This was the most vivid dream I've ever had. And so about two weeks later, we did get a call that my Nana was in an accident. And she was in the hospital, she had a pretty much a shattered hip. And, and so she never really recovered from that, because she ended up developing MRSA. And so she was in hospice for probably about five weeks. And she just lingered there, you know, off and on there in hospice. But on the day that she died, and with permission from my family, I looked at my sister, and I said, I know where she's going. She's going to the house that she and granddaddy lived in. And she's going to meet up with him there in the spot that was depicted in this dream. So I asked my family if we could go take some equipment to see if this would happen. And they said, Sure. So we went to the house I stood in the spot that was depicted in the dream it's right outside his office in his in this house. And we had a couple K2 meters. Now the power had been turned off because Nana was no longer living there. And so we have two K2 meters that are designed to measure electromagnetic energy, what is gray and what is black? And so Jenny and I are standing, they were only about three, three feet apart. And I said, Nana, are you here? Both of those K2 meters started alarming? And I said, Okay, stop. And just to confirm, can you just go to the black one, and just the black one lit up? I said, Okay, stop. If just to confirm one more time, can you go to the gray meter, and just the gray meter lit up. And so through this series of questions, we were able to determine what I think is Nana and granddady met up. And they ascended after that, because we went back a week later, and we perform the exact same experiments with the exact same tools and questions, and we didn't get anything. And so in my mind, granddaddy's unfinished business was he was waiting on Nana, and they moved on together after that. So in my mind, they're not ghosts or spirits anymore, so I'm not going to look for them. Because that that is unfinished, that unfinished business was fulfilled. So that's one theory. The next one is, to your point, I do think that some are stuck. They know that they're dead, but they can't find the way to ascend to what is next. And I think we see that a lot with children, especially younger children that really don't have that, that can't find that concept of going on to the light. And so that that's the theory on that one. And then the third one is that they are afraid of retribution of what's coming next. So they weren't so great in life, and they're afraid of a sending because that fear of eternal punishment. And I think those are the spirits that we're talking to in places like prisons, in jails or asylums. So those are the three theories that we kind of work with, when we're going out and doing our investigations.

Jim Harold 22:49
Yeah, and that's, you know, that last bit, I have to admit, that's disturbing. But I mean, if that's what it is, that's what it is. But it just, it's just really, really sad to me. The other thing you mentioned earlier, I want to bring up because it's something else that disturbs me. And I agree, again, we find ourselves on the same page as this idea of provoking, you know, when I see that, and I know there's some very popular people that do that. But it's gonna like, well, if you went into a living person's home, and you started yelling at them, you know, they're not exactly going to be pleasant, you might find yourself on the ground. Again, Can you expound on your thoughts of the idea of provoking?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 23:30
To us we absolutely do not do that. It is, to your point, something that is disrespectful to us? Why would you go in and try to start a conversation by saying, I'm not going to believe you're here unless you throw this chair across the room. And it's just that is just so polar opposite of what we do and what we're attempting to do. As I said, before, we go in with a sense of respect, we will introduce ourselves, as soon as we cross the threshold, we introduce ourselves, we say who we are and what we're attempting to do. We are also very proficient in what we call trigger items. So we will research a location extensively before we go and do the investigation. And we will take trigger items in an attempt to get spirits to communicate with us. So for example, we were investigating fort Mifflin in Philadelphia, this was a revolutionary war fort, and you know, just has a very long history extremely great narrative historical narrative. And so one of the casemates there, these are subterranean rooms where they kept munitions during the Revolutionary War. One of these casemates was transformed into a solitary confinement so where they held a guy for treason before they killed him on the Ford. And so his name was William Howell. And so we thought to ourselves, What would somebody in solitary confinement want, right? He probably won't water he probably wants some food, and we took him you know, some cigarettes for good measure. So we've set those in the room and we said these are for you if you want them. You can you can have them, we're gonna leave them for you. And so then we left. And we were investigating other locations in the fort, and Cara and I went back in there a couple hours later. And we were sitting down. And this is a very small room. And so we sat down and I said, Did you see the stuff that we left for you? And then we got a very audible, thank you. Again, everything that we had running captured it. We heard it in the moment as well. And so I think because we acknowledged there was something that he needed or wanted, we got that respect. So for us provoking is absolutely out of the question. But going in with a sense of respect and acknowledgement certainly is.

Jim Harold 25:41
Well, I think that makes sense makes a lot of sense. So what did the what did the Spirit say? What did the ghosts say? I mean, you talked about it some but what are common themes you see repeating themselves, but time and time again?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 25:53
We get a lot of thank yous, again, in responses to the questions that we ask or in any of the trigger items that we take. And we we just get responses that are germane to the situation in a lot of these locations. And by that, I mean, you know, like the example from the Lizzie Borden house where we asked, you know, where we said it would be a horrible way to die. And we got that it was we've gotten, again, just very intelligent responses to a lot of questions. We've had our names called, which is is is interesting in and of itself. And I think just people are the spirits want their stories told, right? So, for example, we were investigating the Ma Barker house in Central Florida, we were the first team allowed to investigate this location. And it was the site of the 1935 shootout between Ma and Fred Barker, two members of the Barker-Karpis gang, and 12 members from the FBI. And that shootout in on January 16 1935 culminated in the death of Ma and Fred Barker, inside that house. And so it's always been reported to be haunted. So to be the first team to go in and investigate was was really exciting for us. But the power had been turned off because the the house had actually been moved from its original location. So the power was off, there was no water to it or anything, we had complete control of this environment. And so when Jenny and I went to conduct this investigation, we were up in the room where Ma and Fred's bodies were found. And we're using a device called the spirit box. And generally speaking, it's an am FM radio that's been modified to sweep very quickly through frequencies. And we're in a town that has no radio stations anywhere. So we're not picking up any real radio interference at all. And as it's sweeping through these stations, the theory is the spirits can use the white noise to communicate with you. And so I asked what happened in this room and through the spirit box, we got the phrase, they murdered us, we the ones dead. And so for me, that's their story, right? They were terrible people. But their their story is they were murdered by the FBI. And that's the story that we're going to tell in, in our video. Because that's the story that they wanted told. And so for us, when we can communicate with these spirits and get their story told, that's really what we want to do.

Jim Harold 28:09
Now, in terms of the in you, you've spoken about some of these things, but you know, if you watch the TV shows, the focus is all on the tech. So I will ask you, what tech Do you like? What are your favorite tools that you use? But also, what is the role of tech versus, you know, your, your, your senses, and your common sense and those kinds of things? How do you see the tech overall and of the tech you do use? What's your favorite?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 28:40
Well, the technology that we take with us is really just for validation purposes, right? So if you've got k@ meters, which are meters designed to measure electromagnetic energy, if you got k two meters going off, and you're also getting interesting phrases on the spirit box, and you've got flashlights going off and such that just really builds a more compelling case that something is acting upon these pieces of equipment. But that being said, the voice recorders for us are the best pieces of equipment that we have. We've got 12 voice recorders, we always carry one with us. And we always put them in different locations around the facility in order to have ears everywhere that we can. And the reason that I like voice recorders is because for me EVPs are extremely difficult to debunk right light sources. orbs on pictures and stuff I can I can find a logical explanation for most of those in most instances, but voice recorders or voices that we capture. Those are very hard for me to debunk because I've know that I've got control of this environment but yet I've got a voice and unknown voice being recorded on this voice recorder. For example, we were at the the Exchange Hotel in Gordonsville, Virginia, and this was a hotel that was transitioned into a civil war hospital during the Civil War, and there was over 700 verified deaths of both Union and Confederate soldiers in this hospital. And there are reports of different spirits that very active spirits in this hotel. And so we had a voice recorder on one of the beds in one of these rooms. And three of us were outside two of us were in the hotel at the time, but not in that area. And we captured a man's voice saying, I don't know, I'll be back at 3:30 It's extremely clear. It's, you know, and that's something again that I can't debunk. So, voice recorders are extremely important for what we do. We have night vision video cameras, again, because we want eyes on on as much of the property as we can. We do have those K2 meters that I mentioned, we have the spirit box, which I mentioned, we've got an EDI box, which is kind of a conglomeration of K2 meters, a thermometer, sensor, proximity meter, a vibration meter. So it's kind of a multifunctional tool, which is fantastic. So we take the we take things like that, but then also, like I said, we employ those trigger items that we take as well. But for me, we, we rely on tech, because, again, it validates, but the old school method of just finding those voices, and maybe capturing a few things on video cameras, kind of the old school method, if you will, if you will, is the most compelling.

Jim Harold 31:24
Now we touched on it a little bit earlier at the beginning of the show, but the fact you have a PhD and soul sisters paranormal has a very interesting composition of the folks that are in it. So can you talk to us a little bit about the team and, and how they might be a little bit unique?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 31:44
Absolutely. So as you mentioned before, I do have a PhD in public affairs with an emphasis on criminal justice, my twin sister has the same degree. We've got two lawyers on the team as well as a Master's holder, she has a master's in education. And so it is a very unique concept, a very unique makeup. That's not to say that we're any better than any other paranormal team in the community. I'm not saying that at all, but it is a little bit different and unique. And the fact that we're also an all female team, I think personally that leads to a little bit of empathy, more so than an all male team or a co ed team. I think females by their very nature are more empathic and so I think because of that and as well as our investigation style, I think that has led us to really capture some very compelling evidence again that we can't explain. So we do have a different makeup but it's one that I feel is is fitting for soul sisters paranormal.

Jim Harold 32:41
Well, it's been a great conversation I've really enjoyed it you're very interesting person and have a lot of interesting perspectives. If people want to find out more about what you all do and I know that you have a series of videos and so forth. How can they check all of that out?

Dr. Kristy Sumner 32:56
So our website is All of our videos are there. Anything you want to know about us is there we're also very active on Facebook under sources should paranormal. We also have a YouTube channel under soul sisters paranormal.

Jim Harold 33:12
Very good. Our guest has been Dr. Kristy Sumner, and the subject has been ghost investigation and soul sisters paranormal Kristy, thank you so much. It's been a joy. You're a very interesting person and I wish you and the team all the best. Thank you for tuning in to the program. We appreciate it. We will talk to you next time. Have a great week everybody and as always, stay safe and stay spooky. Bye bye